Liverpool City Council (Prohibition of Smoking in Places of Work) Bill
Lord Faulkner of Worcester:
My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. Its purpose is to protect employees and members of the public in Liverpool from the effects of second-hand smoke by prohibiting smoking in places of work throughout the city. The Liverpool Bill is identical in its purpose and content to the Bill that will be introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland, shortly after I have spoken. We are grateful to all noble Lords who have put down their names to speak and particularly look forward to hearing the maiden speech of my noble friend Lord Stratford, who is temporarily out of the Chamber but who I am sure will be back in a moment.
Liverpool City Council has consulted widely and has twice voted by massive majorities to proceed with this Bill. It did so most recently on 26 January 2005 by 64 votes to eight—an eight-to-one majority. Surveys conducted across the city last October by John Dawson Associates show that more than 70 per cent of the city's population believe that all employees and customers should be protected by law from second-hand smoke. More than three-quarters of visitors to Liverpool say that they are bothered by smoking in enclosed public places.
As we expected, these Bills have attracted some opposition, and the petitions reflect that. The promoters are willing to listen to suggestions to improve them that may be made in Committee and meet some of the concerns expressed by petitioners. Your Lordships would not expect the promoters to agree to amendments which would create loopholes and negate the Bill's purpose of significantly improving the health and welfare of the people of Liverpool and London.
The Bills are modelled on the very successful legislation introduced in Ireland in 2004 and adopted by numerous authorities and countries across the world, including Norway, many states in the USA and, most recently, Italy, Sweden and Scotland.
It may be suggested that, with government legislation imminent, there is no need for these private Bills. I can answer this in two ways. First, there is no certainty yet that the Government's Bill will provide the same comprehensive protection for all workers in the hospitality industry, particularly in the pubs which do not serve food and in members' clubs, as the Liverpool and London Bills will achieve. Indeed, were the White Paper proposals to be enacted, they would widen health inequalities and deny to some of the most lowly paid workers the protection from second-hand smoke which the great majority of employees will enjoy from the Government's Bill.
The Government would also create commercial inequalities in the pub and licensing trade. It is striking that virtually every participant in the Government's consultation so far seems to be demanding that everyone should be treated similarly. If there are to be restrictions on smoking, they should apply to all.
The Government's claim that up to 90 per cent of pubs would be smoke-free because they prepare and serve food certainly would not apply in Liverpool. Indeed, if we relied on the White Paper proposals, 59 per cent of the pubs in the city would be exempted because they do not serve food. In the poorest parts of the city, the figure rises to 80 per cent. Of the 20 per cent of pubs that serve food, nearly a third say that they would stop serving it if that meant that their customers could continue to smoke. Such widening of health inequalities cannot make sense.
There is a second, perhaps even more compelling reason why these two Bills should proceed. Committee proceedings on private Bills are different from those on government Bills in both this House and in the other place. I understand that the Lord Chairman will briefly intervene after I have spoken to explain a little bit more about this rather unusual procedure for private Bills which we are following tonight and in Committee.
Where there are petitions against the Bill, the promoters call evidence from expert witnesses, on oath, before a committee of five of your Lordships who are lucky enough to be selected. The case for these Bills will be introduced by a Queen's Counsel. The promoters are likely to seek evidence on, among other matters, the effects of second-hand smoke, the effect of ventilation and the experience in Ireland. The committee will be given the chance to consider the issues in an unprecedented level of detail with highly experienced witnesses. I am sure that the Minister will acknowledge that, by subjecting these Bills to such intensive examination in Committee, we shall be assisting the Government's deliberations on their own Bill enormously. It will be an unusual, but extremely helpful, form of pre-legislative scrutiny.
I should make clear that the promoters of the Bill are not flying a kite. They intend to see it through. Liverpool City Council's proposals have been long in gestation, and it is worth noting that the Bill was deposited last November, long before the Government made their manifesto commitment.
Ten of the 19 petitions against this Bill come from licensees and their representative bodies. There are no petitions from bar workers or their representatives.
They strongly support such legislation, not least because they are an occupational group at particular risk, as the latest report of the Government's Scientific Committee on Tobacco and Health makes clear. The latest epidemiology, published in March in the British Medical Journal, suggests that premature deaths from exposure to second-hand smoke in the hospitality industry number more than one a week.
Why Liverpool? Liverpool has a reputation as a pioneering public health city. The Liverpool Sanitary Act 1846 was the first piece of public health legislation in Britain, and the city created the first medical officer of health post. That private legislation was subsequently incorporated into the national Public Health Act 1848. There are numerous examples and precedents of local authorities introducing their own health-related legislation. More recently, in the 1940s and 1950s, many cities, including Liverpool, introduced their own clean air legislation. This was all consolidated in the first national Clean Air Act in 1956.
The scale of death and disease in Liverpool caused directly by smoking is among the worst in the country. The proportion of the population in England which smokes is now 27 per cent; in Liverpool, it is 36 per cent. In some of the poorest wards of the city, the figure rises to 48 per cent. The result is that across Liverpool at least 1,000 people every year die from smoking-related illnesses, such as lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema and all the other dreadful conditions that smoking can cause.
In Liverpool, mortality from lung cancer is 109 per cent higher for women and 73 per cent higher for men than it is across England and Wales as a whole. Mortality in Liverpool from coronary heart disease is 23 per cent higher for women and 29 per cent higher for men than across England and Wales as a whole. There is a huge pride in Liverpool that the city has been chosen as the 2008 European Capital of Culture. It is not surprising that it now wishes to be rid of its current title as the lung cancer capital of England.
Smoking is the greatest single contributor to health inequalities and to differences in life expectancies between social classes. To quote just one stark statistic, on average across the UK a man in social class 5—that is the poorest—has one chance in two of living to the age of 70. A man in social class 1 has two chances in three, and by far the largest factor in that difference is smoking.
It is well established that the most powerful policy lever now available to cut smoking rates is to end smoking in workplaces and in all enclosed public spaces. That is a fact that the tobacco industry has long recognised. On the Internet, there is an internal document produced by the Philip Morris company in 1992, released as a consequence of litigation being carried out against the tobacco industry in the United States. The document said that,
"total prohibition of smoking in the workplace strongly affects industry volume. Smokers facing these restrictions consume 11 to 15 per cent less than average and quit at a rate that is 84 per cent higher than average . . . these restrictions are rapidly becoming more common . . . Milder workplace restrictions, such as smoking only in designated areas, have much less impact on quitting rates and very little effect on consumption".
Those are the words from Philip Morris. So when your Lordships read the latest lobbying material from the Tobacco Advisory Council, I ask you to remember that that argument is not about liberty or freedom but about selling cigarettes.
In his report to the Government on public health health issues, Sir Derek Wanless estimated that a complete end to smoking in all workplaces could cut smoking prevalence rates by up to 4 per cent. That would reduce the rate from more than one in four—the national average today—to close to one in five. The Liverpool Bill will be good news for the 70 per cent of smokers who repeatedly say that they want to quit, and good news for their families and friends. If the Bill is passed, many hundreds of lives will be saved—and that in itself is a powerful argument for this legislation.
Of course, I accept that we cannot tell people what to do for their own good; much as we might want to encourage people not to smoke, we cannot force them to quit. That is why it is so important that we see an increase in the number of smoking cessation clinics and other aids to persuade people to give up smoking. Liverpool has pioneered those projects in the poorest part of the city and will do more after the Bill is passed. Meanwhile, we can properly require people not to smoke when and where their habit will damage the health of others—and that is what smoking does.
On the basis of the figures contained in the report of the Government's own scientific committee on smoking and health, it is possible to estimate that around 100 premature deaths a year across Liverpool are caused by second-hand smoke. For every premature death, there will be many cases of serious illness. For example, a recent Department of Health survey for England shows that people who are exposed to other people's tobacco smoke for six or more hours a week were 50 per cent more likely than those who were not to develop asthma symptoms and breathlessness, coughing and wheezing.
Asthma UK states that one in five people with asthma are prevented from using parts of their workplace where people smoke because of cigarette fumes. I am very pleased to see my noble friend Lord Simon in his place today—and I wish him a very happy birthday. As an asthma sufferer himself, he has impressed your Lordships on many occasions by telling us what hell it is to work in a building where smoking is permitted. He knows better than any of us that cigarette smoke is the second most common asthma trigger in the workplace.
British researchers Peto and Doll have expressed the risk of developing lung cancer from passive smoking as being about 90 times higher than the risk of developing an asbestos-related cancer due to asbestos in buildings. It is astonishing that we have not up to now taken the risk of smoking more seriously.
Smoking restrictions do not require intensive or costly enforcement. That has been the experience in Ireland, New York, on the London Underground, on other UK metro systems and on buses and trains. Such restrictions are generally observed by popular consensus, and the Liverpool Bill will be no different. It is alleged by some business and tobacco lobbyists that smoking bans will do serious economic damage, particularly in hospitality venues. Frankly, there is little objective evidence for that assertion. Indeed, in New York, employment and tax revenue from the hospitality sector have both risen sharply since the city's smoke-free ordinance came into effect. The picture is much the same in Ireland, where the dire prediction of the drinks trade that the hospitality industry would collapse have proved completely unfounded.
As recently as 14 July, the Morning Advertiser reported the results of a survey that it had commissioned on a smoking ban in pubs. It said that smoke-free pubs would create a potential pool of new custom, with a quarter of the 2,350 people questioned saying that they would go to pubs more often if they were smoke-free.
The economic costs to employers of smoking among the Liverpool workforce is approximately £28.5 million per annum, as a result of increased illness and reduced productivity. The Royal College of Physicians said only this week that an outright ban on smoking in public places would save the UK economy £4 billion. So cutting smoking rates would bring great economic benefits, and this Bill will make a real difference to the health of the people of Liverpool. I am proud to be its sponsor, and I commend the Bill to the House.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Faulkner of Worcester.)
The debate continued .........
Liverpool City Council has consulted widely and has twice voted by massive majorities to proceed with this Bill. It did so most recently on 26 January 2005 by 64 votes to eight—an eight-to-one majority. Surveys conducted across the city last October by John Dawson Associates show that more than 70 per cent of the city's population believe that all employees and customers should be protected by law from second-hand smoke. More than three-quarters of visitors to Liverpool say that they are bothered by smoking in enclosed public places.
As we expected, these Bills have attracted some opposition, and the petitions reflect that. The promoters are willing to listen to suggestions to improve them that may be made in Committee and meet some of the concerns expressed by petitioners. Your Lordships would not expect the promoters to agree to amendments which would create loopholes and negate the Bill's purpose of significantly improving the health and welfare of the people of Liverpool and London.
The Bills are modelled on the very successful legislation introduced in Ireland in 2004 and adopted by numerous authorities and countries across the world, including Norway, many states in the USA and, most recently, Italy, Sweden and Scotland.
It may be suggested that, with government legislation imminent, there is no need for these private Bills. I can answer this in two ways. First, there is no certainty yet that the Government's Bill will provide the same comprehensive protection for all workers in the hospitality industry, particularly in the pubs which do not serve food and in members' clubs, as the Liverpool and London Bills will achieve. Indeed, were the White Paper proposals to be enacted, they would widen health inequalities and deny to some of the most lowly paid workers the protection from second-hand smoke which the great majority of employees will enjoy from the Government's Bill.
The Government would also create commercial inequalities in the pub and licensing trade. It is striking that virtually every participant in the Government's consultation so far seems to be demanding that everyone should be treated similarly. If there are to be restrictions on smoking, they should apply to all.
The Government's claim that up to 90 per cent of pubs would be smoke-free because they prepare and serve food certainly would not apply in Liverpool. Indeed, if we relied on the White Paper proposals, 59 per cent of the pubs in the city would be exempted because they do not serve food. In the poorest parts of the city, the figure rises to 80 per cent. Of the 20 per cent of pubs that serve food, nearly a third say that they would stop serving it if that meant that their customers could continue to smoke. Such widening of health inequalities cannot make sense.
There is a second, perhaps even more compelling reason why these two Bills should proceed. Committee proceedings on private Bills are different from those on government Bills in both this House and in the other place. I understand that the Lord Chairman will briefly intervene after I have spoken to explain a little bit more about this rather unusual procedure for private Bills which we are following tonight and in Committee.
Where there are petitions against the Bill, the promoters call evidence from expert witnesses, on oath, before a committee of five of your Lordships who are lucky enough to be selected. The case for these Bills will be introduced by a Queen's Counsel. The promoters are likely to seek evidence on, among other matters, the effects of second-hand smoke, the effect of ventilation and the experience in Ireland. The committee will be given the chance to consider the issues in an unprecedented level of detail with highly experienced witnesses. I am sure that the Minister will acknowledge that, by subjecting these Bills to such intensive examination in Committee, we shall be assisting the Government's deliberations on their own Bill enormously. It will be an unusual, but extremely helpful, form of pre-legislative scrutiny.
I should make clear that the promoters of the Bill are not flying a kite. They intend to see it through. Liverpool City Council's proposals have been long in gestation, and it is worth noting that the Bill was deposited last November, long before the Government made their manifesto commitment.
Ten of the 19 petitions against this Bill come from licensees and their representative bodies. There are no petitions from bar workers or their representatives.
They strongly support such legislation, not least because they are an occupational group at particular risk, as the latest report of the Government's Scientific Committee on Tobacco and Health makes clear. The latest epidemiology, published in March in the British Medical Journal, suggests that premature deaths from exposure to second-hand smoke in the hospitality industry number more than one a week.
Why Liverpool? Liverpool has a reputation as a pioneering public health city. The Liverpool Sanitary Act 1846 was the first piece of public health legislation in Britain, and the city created the first medical officer of health post. That private legislation was subsequently incorporated into the national Public Health Act 1848. There are numerous examples and precedents of local authorities introducing their own health-related legislation. More recently, in the 1940s and 1950s, many cities, including Liverpool, introduced their own clean air legislation. This was all consolidated in the first national Clean Air Act in 1956.
The scale of death and disease in Liverpool caused directly by smoking is among the worst in the country. The proportion of the population in England which smokes is now 27 per cent; in Liverpool, it is 36 per cent. In some of the poorest wards of the city, the figure rises to 48 per cent. The result is that across Liverpool at least 1,000 people every year die from smoking-related illnesses, such as lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema and all the other dreadful conditions that smoking can cause.
In Liverpool, mortality from lung cancer is 109 per cent higher for women and 73 per cent higher for men than it is across England and Wales as a whole. Mortality in Liverpool from coronary heart disease is 23 per cent higher for women and 29 per cent higher for men than across England and Wales as a whole. There is a huge pride in Liverpool that the city has been chosen as the 2008 European Capital of Culture. It is not surprising that it now wishes to be rid of its current title as the lung cancer capital of England.
Smoking is the greatest single contributor to health inequalities and to differences in life expectancies between social classes. To quote just one stark statistic, on average across the UK a man in social class 5—that is the poorest—has one chance in two of living to the age of 70. A man in social class 1 has two chances in three, and by far the largest factor in that difference is smoking.
It is well established that the most powerful policy lever now available to cut smoking rates is to end smoking in workplaces and in all enclosed public spaces. That is a fact that the tobacco industry has long recognised. On the Internet, there is an internal document produced by the Philip Morris company in 1992, released as a consequence of litigation being carried out against the tobacco industry in the United States. The document said that,
"total prohibition of smoking in the workplace strongly affects industry volume. Smokers facing these restrictions consume 11 to 15 per cent less than average and quit at a rate that is 84 per cent higher than average . . . these restrictions are rapidly becoming more common . . . Milder workplace restrictions, such as smoking only in designated areas, have much less impact on quitting rates and very little effect on consumption".
Those are the words from Philip Morris. So when your Lordships read the latest lobbying material from the Tobacco Advisory Council, I ask you to remember that that argument is not about liberty or freedom but about selling cigarettes.
In his report to the Government on public health health issues, Sir Derek Wanless estimated that a complete end to smoking in all workplaces could cut smoking prevalence rates by up to 4 per cent. That would reduce the rate from more than one in four—the national average today—to close to one in five. The Liverpool Bill will be good news for the 70 per cent of smokers who repeatedly say that they want to quit, and good news for their families and friends. If the Bill is passed, many hundreds of lives will be saved—and that in itself is a powerful argument for this legislation.
Of course, I accept that we cannot tell people what to do for their own good; much as we might want to encourage people not to smoke, we cannot force them to quit. That is why it is so important that we see an increase in the number of smoking cessation clinics and other aids to persuade people to give up smoking. Liverpool has pioneered those projects in the poorest part of the city and will do more after the Bill is passed. Meanwhile, we can properly require people not to smoke when and where their habit will damage the health of others—and that is what smoking does.
On the basis of the figures contained in the report of the Government's own scientific committee on smoking and health, it is possible to estimate that around 100 premature deaths a year across Liverpool are caused by second-hand smoke. For every premature death, there will be many cases of serious illness. For example, a recent Department of Health survey for England shows that people who are exposed to other people's tobacco smoke for six or more hours a week were 50 per cent more likely than those who were not to develop asthma symptoms and breathlessness, coughing and wheezing.
Asthma UK states that one in five people with asthma are prevented from using parts of their workplace where people smoke because of cigarette fumes. I am very pleased to see my noble friend Lord Simon in his place today—and I wish him a very happy birthday. As an asthma sufferer himself, he has impressed your Lordships on many occasions by telling us what hell it is to work in a building where smoking is permitted. He knows better than any of us that cigarette smoke is the second most common asthma trigger in the workplace.
British researchers Peto and Doll have expressed the risk of developing lung cancer from passive smoking as being about 90 times higher than the risk of developing an asbestos-related cancer due to asbestos in buildings. It is astonishing that we have not up to now taken the risk of smoking more seriously.
Smoking restrictions do not require intensive or costly enforcement. That has been the experience in Ireland, New York, on the London Underground, on other UK metro systems and on buses and trains. Such restrictions are generally observed by popular consensus, and the Liverpool Bill will be no different. It is alleged by some business and tobacco lobbyists that smoking bans will do serious economic damage, particularly in hospitality venues. Frankly, there is little objective evidence for that assertion. Indeed, in New York, employment and tax revenue from the hospitality sector have both risen sharply since the city's smoke-free ordinance came into effect. The picture is much the same in Ireland, where the dire prediction of the drinks trade that the hospitality industry would collapse have proved completely unfounded.
As recently as 14 July, the Morning Advertiser reported the results of a survey that it had commissioned on a smoking ban in pubs. It said that smoke-free pubs would create a potential pool of new custom, with a quarter of the 2,350 people questioned saying that they would go to pubs more often if they were smoke-free.
The economic costs to employers of smoking among the Liverpool workforce is approximately £28.5 million per annum, as a result of increased illness and reduced productivity. The Royal College of Physicians said only this week that an outright ban on smoking in public places would save the UK economy £4 billion. So cutting smoking rates would bring great economic benefits, and this Bill will make a real difference to the health of the people of Liverpool. I am proud to be its sponsor, and I commend the Bill to the House.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Faulkner of Worcester.)
The debate continued .........
........ winding up the debate
Lord Faulkner of Worcester:
My Lords, I congratulate your Lordships on once again managing to reflect British public opinion so well in this Chamber. Support among the British people for completely smoke-free enclosed public places and workplaces is running at between two and three to one. That is almost exactly the proportion of Peers who have spoken in favour of the two Bills tonight, and I am sure that if all Members of the House voted on the issue, that proportion would be maintained.
I am most grateful to everyone who has spoken in the debate, especially to those of your Lordships who have brought such a deeply impressive understanding of the medical and social issues involved in smoking and health. It would be invidious of me to single out any particular speaker. I do not think I have come across such a powerful array of speakers from a medical background as we have heard tonight. But I must congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Stratford, on his brilliant maiden speech. We look forward to hearing him on this and many other issues many times in the future.
I express my appreciation also to the Minister for her thoughtful and helpful speech. The change in the Government's approach during recent months is remarkable, and that was reflected in what she had to say today. I know how strongly she supports a comprehensive approach to smoke-free workplaces. I hope that she will take very seriously the points that have been made by speakers who have backed these two Bills tonight on the extra number of lives that will be saved if a comprehensive approach, rather than the piecemeal approach which was contained in the White Paper published before the general election, is adopted.
I thank also the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for her contribution from the Liberal Democrat Benches. Her support for the two Bills is much appreciated. I know that the heart of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is very much in the right place. He has a job to do with some of his noble friends. Virtually every opponent of these measures tonight came from the Benches behind him. He has some persuading to do on the dangers of passive smoking and why a radical policy needs to be adopted.
I should deal briefly with some of the points that were made by opponents of the Bills. On the issue whether passive smoking kills, I think only one speaker denied the facts on that: the noble Lord, Lord Harris of High Cross, who sadly has had to leave us. I am sure that he will want to read very carefully the contributions from the noble Lord, Lord Chan, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and my noble friends Lord Turnberg and Lord Rea on that subject, and indeed others. He might also like to read the latest report of the Chief Medical Officer that was published yesterday.
Attempts by the tobacco lobby to deny that passive smoking kills are similar to their earlier attempts to deny that smoking itself is dangerous or that nicotine is addictive. They tell untruths on these matters, and they are not telling the truth on passive smoking.
As many speakers in this debate have demonstrated, the claims that smoking bans are bad for business are also untrue, based on experience elsewhere. My noble friend Lord Haskel dealt very effectively with that point, and my noble friend Lord Rosser reminded us how strongly trade union support for comprehensive smoke-free policies is running.
Questions were asked about the scale of the consultation in Liverpool. The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, raised that matter early in the debate. He will find that my noble supporter, the noble Lord, Lord Chan, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, answered the points on consultation. The promoters of the Bills will write to the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, if he wishes, to give him more details of how extensive the consultation was.
Lord Naseby:
Lord Faulkner of Worcester:
My Lords, I congratulate your Lordships on once again managing to reflect British public opinion so well in this Chamber. Support among the British people for completely smoke-free enclosed public places and workplaces is running at between two and three to one. That is almost exactly the proportion of Peers who have spoken in favour of the two Bills tonight, and I am sure that if all Members of the House voted on the issue, that proportion would be maintained.
I am most grateful to everyone who has spoken in the debate, especially to those of your Lordships who have brought such a deeply impressive understanding of the medical and social issues involved in smoking and health. It would be invidious of me to single out any particular speaker. I do not think I have come across such a powerful array of speakers from a medical background as we have heard tonight. But I must congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Stratford, on his brilliant maiden speech. We look forward to hearing him on this and many other issues many times in the future.
I express my appreciation also to the Minister for her thoughtful and helpful speech. The change in the Government's approach during recent months is remarkable, and that was reflected in what she had to say today. I know how strongly she supports a comprehensive approach to smoke-free workplaces. I hope that she will take very seriously the points that have been made by speakers who have backed these two Bills tonight on the extra number of lives that will be saved if a comprehensive approach, rather than the piecemeal approach which was contained in the White Paper published before the general election, is adopted.
I thank also the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for her contribution from the Liberal Democrat Benches. Her support for the two Bills is much appreciated. I know that the heart of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is very much in the right place. He has a job to do with some of his noble friends. Virtually every opponent of these measures tonight came from the Benches behind him. He has some persuading to do on the dangers of passive smoking and why a radical policy needs to be adopted.
I should deal briefly with some of the points that were made by opponents of the Bills. On the issue whether passive smoking kills, I think only one speaker denied the facts on that: the noble Lord, Lord Harris of High Cross, who sadly has had to leave us. I am sure that he will want to read very carefully the contributions from the noble Lord, Lord Chan, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and my noble friends Lord Turnberg and Lord Rea on that subject, and indeed others. He might also like to read the latest report of the Chief Medical Officer that was published yesterday.
Attempts by the tobacco lobby to deny that passive smoking kills are similar to their earlier attempts to deny that smoking itself is dangerous or that nicotine is addictive. They tell untruths on these matters, and they are not telling the truth on passive smoking.
As many speakers in this debate have demonstrated, the claims that smoking bans are bad for business are also untrue, based on experience elsewhere. My noble friend Lord Haskel dealt very effectively with that point, and my noble friend Lord Rosser reminded us how strongly trade union support for comprehensive smoke-free policies is running.
Questions were asked about the scale of the consultation in Liverpool. The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, raised that matter early in the debate. He will find that my noble supporter, the noble Lord, Lord Chan, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, answered the points on consultation. The promoters of the Bills will write to the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, if he wishes, to give him more details of how extensive the consultation was.
Lord Naseby:
My Lords, not only does he wish it, but he looks forward to receiving them.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester:
Lord Faulkner of Worcester:
My Lords, that is good to know. The question whether this is an appropriate subject for local government legislation was raised by one or two speakers, and it was answered to great effect by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, by my noble friend Lord Rosser and indeed by other speakers. I ask noble Lords to look at the history of local authority legislation, particularly in the health field. So much of what was passed in the 19th century which made a difference to the health of our people in our cities originated in local government Bills. The approach of Liverpool and London with these Bills is totally in accord with that spirit.
Noble Lords opposite made some fun of the attitude of Westminster City Council towards the London Bill. It is not true to say that it has withdrawn its support. It remains the lead local authority in promoting it. It has twice voted to promote the legislation. But it is an adoptive Bill in London, and Westminster City Council is perfectly free not to bring it into effect if it chooses to do so. But the voters in the City of Westminster are similarly free to change that council if they feel that it is not representing them. That is called representative democracy and there really is nothing more to it than that.
The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, had some fun about border crossings, and how people would know where the ban applied when they entered London boroughs or the city of Liverpool. We heard from the Minister that we shall shortly be crossing the border into Scotland, where the ban applies. We shall be crossing the border into Wales—and, at present, although perhaps not for much longer, when you cross the border from Northern Ireland into the Irish Republic you are moving from a smoking zone to a no-smoking zone.
There were also questions about places of work. In the case of vessels on the Mersey, if they are within the territorial waters of the city of Liverpool, which go half way out across the Mersey, they are covered by the Bill. Indeed, if lorries are operating in Liverpool, they are covered too.
To talk about "smoke police", as the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, did, is just nonsense. If you look at the Irish experience you can see that there is almost universal compliance. The measures there are implemented by people themselves, who make sure that they are implemented—because the provision is popular and is what people want.
This has been an excellent debate and I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in it. On the liberal principle and the issue of freedom, I quote John Stuart Mill. In his Essay on Liberty he said:
"Acts of whatever kind, which, without justifiable cause, do harm to others, may be, and in the more important cases absolutely require to be, controlled by the unfavourable sentiments, and, when needful, by the active interference of mankind. The liberty of the individual must be thus far limited; he must not make himself a nuisance to other people".
On Question, Bill read a second time and committed to a Select Committee.
Noble Lords opposite made some fun of the attitude of Westminster City Council towards the London Bill. It is not true to say that it has withdrawn its support. It remains the lead local authority in promoting it. It has twice voted to promote the legislation. But it is an adoptive Bill in London, and Westminster City Council is perfectly free not to bring it into effect if it chooses to do so. But the voters in the City of Westminster are similarly free to change that council if they feel that it is not representing them. That is called representative democracy and there really is nothing more to it than that.
The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, had some fun about border crossings, and how people would know where the ban applied when they entered London boroughs or the city of Liverpool. We heard from the Minister that we shall shortly be crossing the border into Scotland, where the ban applies. We shall be crossing the border into Wales—and, at present, although perhaps not for much longer, when you cross the border from Northern Ireland into the Irish Republic you are moving from a smoking zone to a no-smoking zone.
There were also questions about places of work. In the case of vessels on the Mersey, if they are within the territorial waters of the city of Liverpool, which go half way out across the Mersey, they are covered by the Bill. Indeed, if lorries are operating in Liverpool, they are covered too.
To talk about "smoke police", as the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, did, is just nonsense. If you look at the Irish experience you can see that there is almost universal compliance. The measures there are implemented by people themselves, who make sure that they are implemented—because the provision is popular and is what people want.
This has been an excellent debate and I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in it. On the liberal principle and the issue of freedom, I quote John Stuart Mill. In his Essay on Liberty he said:
"Acts of whatever kind, which, without justifiable cause, do harm to others, may be, and in the more important cases absolutely require to be, controlled by the unfavourable sentiments, and, when needful, by the active interference of mankind. The liberty of the individual must be thus far limited; he must not make himself a nuisance to other people".
On Question, Bill read a second time and committed to a Select Committee.
© Lords Hansard 20 July 2005