Ticket Touts

Lord Faulkner of Worcester:

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare an interest as vice-chairman of the Cardiff Millennium Stadium.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to achieve consistency in combating ticket touts and the exploitation of sport and arts supporters.

Lord Davies of Oldham:

My Lords, the restrictions on sales of tickets for the 2012 Olympic Games is a requirement of the International Organising Committee and, in respect of football, to maintain segregation of fans for reasons of public disorder. The Government do not intend to extend these measures or propose new legislation at this stage, preferring to see industry-led solutions, but are considering a case for events of national significance.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester:

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. He will appreciate that it will come as a disappointment to sports governing bodies and arts organisations which find that the activities of ticket touts are disruptive to their business and expensive to control. They cause disorder in the streets and make it impossible to give a decent deal to fans, who are ripped off by the touts.

Is my noble friend aware that the sort of problems we experience at Cardiff, where we may have a football match one week, which is controlled by the legislation on touting, but a rugby match or concert the following week, which is not controlled, are extraordinarily difficult to deal with? The problems will be multiplied when the Olympics come, with venues used for Olympics events, such as Lords for archery and the test match the following week. How can we get some consistency in the way in which ticket touting is dealt with?

Lord Davies of Oldham:

My Lords, as I indicated in my original Answer, the major inconsistency to which my noble friend refers is with football. Of course, under the Public Order Acts, we have restrictions on football ticket sales in order to maintain the necessary segregation of fans, the absence of which has in the past caused mayhem at some football occasions.

In general terms, my noble friend will recognise that there are two sides to the story of the resale of tickets. Certainly, sports organisations and organisations such as his own at the Millennium Stadium resent the profit taken by some people who sell tickets on for that purpose. But a great deal of the resale of tickets is by ordinary members of the public who cannot get to an event to which they intended to go. It would be very difficult to legislate against that resale.

Lord Addington:

My Lords, if we allow this to carry on, we effectively are taking money out of the economic sector because no one receives any extra profit. We would exclude the fans at whom the sale of tickets has been aimed. With online facilities and much better opportunities to buy and sell tickets, what function is preserved by allowing people to take an extra profit and to rip the public off in this way?

Lord Davies of Oldham:

My Lords, it is easier to say that we should produce restrictions than to make them legally enforceable. The noble Lord will know that we potentially will have very great difficulty in enforcing any law under those terms, which is why, even under the existing position with regard to ticket touts and the resale of football tickets, the authorities do not always think that it is right to use the force of the law. The noble Lord is right that there is a problem with online reselling. That is why we have been involved in consultation with the industry to seek to improve practices where resale occurs online; for example, making sure that the original value of the ticket is stated so that the person who is proposing to purchase a ticket knows the accurate value rather than any additional value that someone else might add to it.

Lord Mawhinney:

My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of the Football League. Do the Government have any plans to consult sports governing bodies on this issue?

Lord Davies of Oldham:

My Lords, the Government are in regular contact on the matter with all the major sports governing bodies. Those bodies are putting their case fairly forcefully and, as my noble friend Lord Faulkner indicated, they are pressing for legislation. The Government of course take on board those representations but we also have an obligation to the wider public. Our survey of wider public opinion on this matter shows that the ordinary punter would not want the law to come down to prevent the resale of tickets.

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:

My Lords, notwithstanding what my noble friend has just said, does he accept that the problem is not really about ordinary people selling on tickets that they cannot use? It is about the acquisition of large numbers of tickets, probably legitimately, by people who then sell them on at an inflated price. Does he also accept that in relation to the arts the Government’s position on events of national significance is not going to be of any great help, given that it is a day-to-day problem, particularly in London, and the unavailability of tickets, particularly for hit shows, at other than very inflated prices, brings the whole industry into disrepute and discourages a lot of ordinary people from going to the theatre?

Lord Davies of Oldham:

My Lords, certain aspects of the arts will benefit from our proposed actions because if we make progress with regard to special events, then we may be able to effect greater controls for certain of the hugely in-demand music concerts. I hear what my noble friend says about what I presume is mainly the London theatres. She will recognise that there is legitimate secondary sale and disposal of London theatre tickets. There are ticket operators who legitimately perform what is a valued service. But as she rightly indicates, the danger and problem is that others come into that market with much more malign intentions than just offering a service to the public.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth:

My Lords, I declare an interest as a debenture holder at the Millennium Stadium. It is very well known that, for example, you can find on websites such as amazon.com tickets at greatly inflated prices with a lot of money being made out of them by the people concerned. I was very pleased to hear the Minister say that he is examining online reselling, which is very difficult to control. I know that for some arts events it is impossible to buy tickets in the normal way because a lot of these tickets have been swept up and sold on Amazon at a great profit, which prevents other people getting them at the proper price. It is a serious problem.

Lord Davies of Oldham:

My Lords, there is a difference between the kind of event that the noble Lord was alluding to in the last part of his question and the crown jewel events, the big events that occur at stadiums, which are regular events such as test matches in cricket, the rugby internationals and so on. On the latter, we are looking to see whether legislation might help with regard to those regular events where the sporting authorities are pressing us for some control over the resale of tickets. But the noble Lord will recognise that there are other areas which are much looser in these terms and what goes on on eBay is what other people take advantage of.

© Lords Hansard 5 July 2007