Smoking in the Workplace
Baroness Neuberger asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will take steps to ban all smoking in the workplace in view of the recently published paper in the British Medical Journal on the subject.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Lord Warner):
My Lords, we have announced our intention to introduce a Bill in this Session which will end smoking in the vast majority of workplaces and enclosed public places. Over the summer, a major public consultation has been completed and we are considering the many thousands of responses before finalising the Bill.
Baroness Neuberger:
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Is he fully aware of the evidence that came out of the BMJ online last Monday and out of Tobacco Control that as a result of the legislation in the Irish Republic the reduction in the levels of cotinine in saliva is very considerable, far greater than in Northern Ireland? Is he not aware that the Department of Health has been arguing firmly for evidence-based policy? Do we not now have the evidence?
Lord Warner:
My Lords, the Department of Health has an impeccable record on evidence-based policy. I am well aware of the paper to which the noble Baroness alludes. We are looking closely at this and other studies of the impact of smoke-free legislation. We will take full account of all the studies from Ireland and other parts of the world where legislation has been used to protect workers and the general public from exposure to second-hand smoke.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester:
My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that, in coming to the decision announced on Monday, his ministerial colleague responsible for health in Northern Ireland considered every possible variation to the policy, including exemptions for pubs that do not serve food, for ventilation and for the introduction of so-called smoking carriages; but that he concluded, with the full support of the Northern Irish people, as far as I understand, that only a comprehensive smoke-free policy would protect the public and work people? Does not my noble friend think it would be very strange if we had a policy that protected people in Northern Ireland, in the Irish Republic, in Scotland and in Wales but did not have an identical one in England?
Lord Warner:
My Lords, I well understand my noble friend's views on this subject and I am well aware of what my colleague, Shaun Woodward, said in relation to Northern Ireland. I would urge upon my noble friend and other noble Lords to await the publication of the Bill.
Lord Walton of Detchant:
My Lords, the damaging effect upon human health of both active and passive smoking is now so well understood that it deserves no repetition. Can the Minister confirm that, contrary to the proposals of the Government a few months ago, the Bill they propose to introduce will now ban smoking in all pubs, clubs and similar enclosed spaces, and not only in those where food is served?
Lord Warner:
My Lords, the Government accept the issues surrounding second-hand smoke. That is why we launched in September a campaign which highlights the hidden dangers of second-hand smoke to adults, moving on from our previous campaign around the risk to children. All I can say to the noble Lord in relation to legislation is that he—much as I respect his judgment in these areas—must, like other noble Lords, await the publication of the Bill.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff:
My Lords, can the Minister say how long England will take deliberating on its consultation while Wales has to wait for the primary legislation it needs to enact the results of its own consultations? The decisions have already been debated in the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh Assembly Government have agreed on their proposed strategy.
Lord Warner: My Lords, if you have a public consultation which does not end until the early part of September, it is customary for all governments to take account of the views and evidence produced in that consultation. Ministers are doing just that; they are taking account of all the evidence, as I assured the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger. Patience, while waiting, is a virtue in Wales and in England.
Lord Roberts of Conwy:
My Lords, before the Government succumb totally to the overwhelming puritanism surrounding them at the moment, will they take fully on board the difficulties expressed by one who is in the last-patch stage of giving up smoking? It is a nightmare and an unnerving experience and success is best achieved in a relaxed atmosphere, which is seldom found in the workplace.
Lord Warner:
My Lords, as many noble Lords know, this is a fun loving government and we reject all accusations of puritanism in this area. On behalf of the whole House, I congratulate the noble Lord on the progress he is making. Anything more that my colleagues and I can do to help him in the steady progress he is making we will be very happy to do.
Lord Rogan:
My Lords, I am sure that the law is popular. Along with, I believe, the vast majority of the citizens of Northern Ireland, I welcome the decision made by our Government to ban smoking in the Province. We are still puzzled why more research is needed before the good citizens of England can be shown the same consideration.
Lord Warner: My Lords, I take note of the noble Lord's views.
Lord Addington:
My Lords, is the Minister aware that about 80 per cent of smokers in southern Ireland have said they are in favour of this total ban? If we take into account the trend coming across the Irish Sea, what are the Government afraid of?
Lord Warner:
My Lords, the Government are fearless in taking action when they need to. I have sometimes heard them accused of being too fearless in pursuing policies that are right for the people of this country. We are, as I said, taking account of all the evidence, and noble Lords will see the Bill before too long.
Viscount Simon:
My Lords, I am delighted that my noble friend has said that the Government have an impeccable record in respect of tobacco smoke. Does he agree that other governments have a similar impeccable record in banning tobacco products, which were banned many decades ago?
Lord Warner:
My Lords, we have taken a great deal of action to restrict and contain the use of tobacco, advise our citizenry and prevent smuggling. In 90 per cent of workplaces, smoking is already banned or heavily restricted in particular areas. We are making good progress and I think noble Lords will be encouraged when they see the Bill.
Whether they will take steps to ban all smoking in the workplace in view of the recently published paper in the British Medical Journal on the subject.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Lord Warner):
My Lords, we have announced our intention to introduce a Bill in this Session which will end smoking in the vast majority of workplaces and enclosed public places. Over the summer, a major public consultation has been completed and we are considering the many thousands of responses before finalising the Bill.
Baroness Neuberger:
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Is he fully aware of the evidence that came out of the BMJ online last Monday and out of Tobacco Control that as a result of the legislation in the Irish Republic the reduction in the levels of cotinine in saliva is very considerable, far greater than in Northern Ireland? Is he not aware that the Department of Health has been arguing firmly for evidence-based policy? Do we not now have the evidence?
Lord Warner:
My Lords, the Department of Health has an impeccable record on evidence-based policy. I am well aware of the paper to which the noble Baroness alludes. We are looking closely at this and other studies of the impact of smoke-free legislation. We will take full account of all the studies from Ireland and other parts of the world where legislation has been used to protect workers and the general public from exposure to second-hand smoke.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester:
My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that, in coming to the decision announced on Monday, his ministerial colleague responsible for health in Northern Ireland considered every possible variation to the policy, including exemptions for pubs that do not serve food, for ventilation and for the introduction of so-called smoking carriages; but that he concluded, with the full support of the Northern Irish people, as far as I understand, that only a comprehensive smoke-free policy would protect the public and work people? Does not my noble friend think it would be very strange if we had a policy that protected people in Northern Ireland, in the Irish Republic, in Scotland and in Wales but did not have an identical one in England?
Lord Warner:
My Lords, I well understand my noble friend's views on this subject and I am well aware of what my colleague, Shaun Woodward, said in relation to Northern Ireland. I would urge upon my noble friend and other noble Lords to await the publication of the Bill.
Lord Walton of Detchant:
My Lords, the damaging effect upon human health of both active and passive smoking is now so well understood that it deserves no repetition. Can the Minister confirm that, contrary to the proposals of the Government a few months ago, the Bill they propose to introduce will now ban smoking in all pubs, clubs and similar enclosed spaces, and not only in those where food is served?
Lord Warner:
My Lords, the Government accept the issues surrounding second-hand smoke. That is why we launched in September a campaign which highlights the hidden dangers of second-hand smoke to adults, moving on from our previous campaign around the risk to children. All I can say to the noble Lord in relation to legislation is that he—much as I respect his judgment in these areas—must, like other noble Lords, await the publication of the Bill.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff:
My Lords, can the Minister say how long England will take deliberating on its consultation while Wales has to wait for the primary legislation it needs to enact the results of its own consultations? The decisions have already been debated in the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh Assembly Government have agreed on their proposed strategy.
Lord Warner: My Lords, if you have a public consultation which does not end until the early part of September, it is customary for all governments to take account of the views and evidence produced in that consultation. Ministers are doing just that; they are taking account of all the evidence, as I assured the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger. Patience, while waiting, is a virtue in Wales and in England.
Lord Roberts of Conwy:
My Lords, before the Government succumb totally to the overwhelming puritanism surrounding them at the moment, will they take fully on board the difficulties expressed by one who is in the last-patch stage of giving up smoking? It is a nightmare and an unnerving experience and success is best achieved in a relaxed atmosphere, which is seldom found in the workplace.
Lord Warner:
My Lords, as many noble Lords know, this is a fun loving government and we reject all accusations of puritanism in this area. On behalf of the whole House, I congratulate the noble Lord on the progress he is making. Anything more that my colleagues and I can do to help him in the steady progress he is making we will be very happy to do.
Lord Rogan:
My Lords, I am sure that the law is popular. Along with, I believe, the vast majority of the citizens of Northern Ireland, I welcome the decision made by our Government to ban smoking in the Province. We are still puzzled why more research is needed before the good citizens of England can be shown the same consideration.
Lord Warner: My Lords, I take note of the noble Lord's views.
Lord Addington:
My Lords, is the Minister aware that about 80 per cent of smokers in southern Ireland have said they are in favour of this total ban? If we take into account the trend coming across the Irish Sea, what are the Government afraid of?
Lord Warner:
My Lords, the Government are fearless in taking action when they need to. I have sometimes heard them accused of being too fearless in pursuing policies that are right for the people of this country. We are, as I said, taking account of all the evidence, and noble Lords will see the Bill before too long.
Viscount Simon:
My Lords, I am delighted that my noble friend has said that the Government have an impeccable record in respect of tobacco smoke. Does he agree that other governments have a similar impeccable record in banning tobacco products, which were banned many decades ago?
Lord Warner:
My Lords, we have taken a great deal of action to restrict and contain the use of tobacco, advise our citizenry and prevent smuggling. In 90 per cent of workplaces, smoking is already banned or heavily restricted in particular areas. We are making good progress and I think noble Lords will be encouraged when they see the Bill.
© Lords Hansard 20 October 2005